Tanya Gunther - Q and A

Images courtesy of Glennwood

Tanya Gunther and her father John have enjoyed a remarkable run of success through their Kentucky-based Glennwood Farm operation in recent years, breeding champions such as Justify (USA) (Scat Daddy {USA}), Without Parole (GB) (Frankel {GB}) and recent G1 Breeders' Cup Classic winner Vino Rosso (USA) (Curlin {USA}).

TDN AusNZ's Bren O'Brien caught up with Tanya for an extensive chat about the keys to that success, what it was like raising Justify, selecting stallions, her thoughts on the best mares to send to Justify, the benefits of shuttle stallions, Vino Rosso's prospects as a stallion and the horse welfare debate.

Bren O'Brien: Tanya, the quality of horses your family has been able to breed speaks for itself, what has been the single most significant factor to that success do you believe?

Tanya Gunther: Single-minded persistence! Being a breeder isn’t for the faint of heart so you need to possess a stroke of mad unwavering conviction in what you are doing and heaps of stamina to be able to keep getting back up after being knocked down.

On a more serious note, I don’t believe it is possible to single out a ‘silver bullet’ key to success in a breeding program. There are so many contributing factors to producing good horses and so many hurdles that must be overcome in order for horses to reach their full potential. I believe key factors include pedigree, the mating plan, land and feed, horsemanship, care and attention to detail regarding all of the foregoing.

As breeders, we need to be multi-skilled. We need to be part artist, part scientist, part farmer, part psychologist and even perhaps part wizard! I say the latter in jest but in reality we almost need a crystal ball at times. For example, if breeding commercially (which we do), it is necessary to try to figure out and make decisions now regarding what the market will find appealing in two years time, which is no easy feat.

At Glennwood, we try to keep our eye trained on the end game – breeding the best racehorses possible, not just top sales horses – so it becomes a balancing act when trying to survive in the commercial market as well. One of the ways that art and science come together is during the making of mating plans, an inherently creative process to which it is possible to apply a little science in the form of facts and figures.

The roles of psychologist and farmer come in when trying to keep horses alive, happy and thriving – sounds simple right? But in reality this endeavour is enormously challenging. Finally, these horses have to end up in the right hands during their racing careers. This is an important factor and one over which we have very limited control since most of the horses we raise are sold at public auction as yearlings.

Bren O'Brien: How much of the making of a champion is in the planning of the pedigree and the genetics, and how much is in the nurturing of foals from when they are born until they hit the track?

Tanya Gunther: Genetics are the raw materials. Breeding a top racehorse without the best raw materials is possible but less likely (though identifying the best raw materials is, in and of itself, an art form).

I think we can get in the way of a horse reaching its full potential by mistakes made or events that happen beyond our control during the nurturing and developing processes. Conversely, I don’t think the best program in the world can overcome a lack of the right raw materials.

Bren O'Brien: How soon can you see those champion characteristics, for example in a horse like Justify?

Tanya Gunther: Justify set himself apart from his peers at Glennwood relatively early on, with a few signal lights at first followed by flashing neon. I don’t recall a time when he wasn’t confident and strong-willed.

I remember vividly a time when he was a weanling and I led him out to the field to join his buddies (one of which was Vino Rosso). He had been kept up longer than his paddock-mates so he was keen to get outside and made no bones about that, which was typical of him.

I let him walk on more forwardly than usual because I knew he was annoyed about the delayed turnout and overly restraining him in this mood wouldn’t make for the smoothest trip to the paddock.

So I let him walk on while doing my biggest power walk alongside him, and I was surprised at the way and amount of ground he covered for a weanling. I am a pretty fast walker (just ask my dad about his experience with me in airports!) and I was amazed at how quickly he covered ground, without breaking into a half-trot (though I almost had to!).

He was determined, focused and powerful, and like a flash we were at the gate. This experience was one of those small but striking moments that left an indelible impression on my mind. I even called my dad to tell him about it.

As Justify developed through his yearling year, he had physicality and presence ahead of his peers and this separation increased through the sales preparation process, which came easy to him. He seemed to have boundless energy and never became tired during exercise.

Justify is also very intelligent and he became increasingly aware of his physical superiority, which made him just that little bit more demanding than his peers! He made himself noticed. It seems to me that Justify was a force of nature almost from inception.

Watch: Justify (USA) sell as a yearling

Bren O'Brien: What criteria do you apply in selecting stallions for your broodmares?

Tanya Gunther: I love and agonise over, in equal measure, the process of making our mating plans. These are among the most important decisions we make during the year and one of the factors over which we have some degree of control so I don’t want to mess it up.

I look at prospective pedigrees on paper as well as the physical combination and go back and forth over the pros and cons of each, then engage in an iterative process with my dad, and finally we agree the matings and put them to bed. There is also an element of gut instinct for both of us in this process.

Bren O'Brien: Justify is standing his first season in Australia at Coolmore this season, what do you think we can expect from his progeny when they hit the ground in 2020?

Tanya Gunther: I expect Justify foals to possess strong, athletic physicals and for them to enjoy running and playing like its their job! Justify is a stunning physical specimen. He is magnificent and massive but has great balance so you almost don’t notice how truly grand he is until you stand up next to him.

He has such a powerful physique – even his muscles seem to have muscles – that it is almost as easy to imagine him as a successful sprinter as it is to see him as a classic distance horse despite that he is an undefeated Triple Crown winner who won at distances from 7f to 12f.

I believe a truly exceptional racehorse can succeed at a wide range of distances because they are so superior, so dominant. I believe he would have won top-level sprint races and turf races if he had been targeted to do so.

We are excited about his crossover potential for both dirt and turf surfaces. In fact, we have a mare by Australian stallion Fastnet Rock who we plan to breed to Justify in 2020 and I can’t wait to see the result of this mating!

Bren O'Brien: Is there a certain type of mare that is most suited to Justify as a stallion?

Tanya Gunther: Despite Justify’s size and mass, I feel like he may suit a lot of different mares from a physical perspective. While he resembles his dam in terms of colour, markings and other characteristics, she is a nice medium-sized mare rather than what I would call a big mare. And Scat Daddy (USA) was similarly not a huge horse. It will be intriguing to see what elements Justify stamps on his progeny.

One trait I will be looking closely for is his mind and his competitiveness. Nothing seemed to bother him (other than being kept up in a stall too long!) and he was the ultimate competitor. He exuded superiority and I can imagine the most confident of foes on the racetrack would have taken pause at the sight and presence of him.

I remember watching him do the walkover for the Kentucky Derby. This was the first time I had seen him in person since we sold him as a yearling. I was watching closely to see how he was handling everything because he was relatively inexperienced going into the Derby and the scene on Derby Day can be daunting.

The Derby horses, connections and the media walk across the track from the backside en masse and are greeted by a huge and noisy crowd in Churchill’s grandstand before disappearing through the tunnel to the paddock where an equally busy, loud crowd receives them.

The buzz is incredible and the tension in the air is palpable. Justify walked over like a pro player who had been to the championship games many times before, like he was channelling Tom Brady. He was focused and completely unflustered by the activity. It was remarkable. If he passes along these traits to his progeny, I believe he will be a force to be reckoned with as a stallion as well.

Bren O'Brien: We saw the impact that Vino Rosso had on the racetrack, what sort of impact do you anticipate him having as a stallion with Spendthrift in Kentucky?

Tanya Gunther: I am a big fan of Curlin as a stallion and I think Vino Rosso is an extremely exciting son to join the stallion ranks in 2020.

Vino reminds me of his sire not just physically but because he found his best strike zone going a mile and a quarter, much like Curlin did. Vino won two Group 1s at 10f, the Breeders’ Cup Classic like his dad and the Gold Cup at Santa Anita. Vino was also first across the line (before a controversial DQ) in the G1 Jockey Club Gold Cup, a race also won by Curlin.

Imagine if Vino could replicate even a fraction of what his sire has achieved at stud as well… Breeders are dreamers (!) and only time will tell but we are excited at the prospect of breeding our mares to him.

In addition to being by top stallion Curlin, Vino is out of a Street Cry (Ire) mare who is a half-sister to three graded stakes performers. I think the strength of his pedigree boosts confidence with respect to Vino’s ability to become a successful sire.

Physically, he is a good-looking horse with size, presence and balance, qualities that also remind me of his sire. Vino also has a great mind, which I hope he will pass along to his progeny. He was very laid-back and easy to work with as a yearling at Glennwood and when I saw him at Santa Anita on the day before the Breeders’ Cup Classic, it struck me how focused he had become. He had serious game face and I like to see that competitive mind-set in a horse we are including in our breeding plans.

Bren O'Brien: The access Australian breeders have to these champion North American bloodlines is unprecedented at the moment, what do you feel these outcrosses do for the overall quality of thoroughbreds across the world?

Tanya Gunther: The opportunity to breed to champion bloodlines from other parts of the world is hugely beneficial. We made the decision to send selected mares overseas in order to access different bloodlines and G1 St James’s Palace S. winner Without Parole (GB) (Frankel {GB}) out of Without You Babe (USA) resulted from our European endeavours.

Having champion racehorses such as American Pharoah (USA) and Justify (not just any champion but two Triple Crown winning champions) shuttle to Australia presents an incredible opportunity for breeders, and makes it much easier than sending mares overseas to visit them.

I believe this access provides diversity in the bloodlines and facilitates the creation of ‘break-out’ horses that will become game-changers for the future.

Bren O'Brien: The horse welfare debate is something that is at the centre of discussion both in the USA and in Australia at the moment, what does the thoroughbred industry globally need to do to ensure the ongoing public faith in thoroughbred racing?

The safety and welfare of our horses is paramount. While it is impossible to prevent all injuries and fatalities, we need to make sure we are taking every measure conceivable to achieve the safest environment for horses, both during and after their racing careers.

There will always be a segment of the public that won’t hold the industry in a positive light no matter what we do, but we need to satisfy ourselves that we are doing the best that we can and exercise some control over the narrative.

I think we also need to appreciate more fully that our sport is in competition with other sports and activities for mindshare from the public and that we need to do more in order to keep the sport relevant, thriving and understood.

I can’t imagine how our love of horses and this sport wouldn’t be catching if we could find a practical way to bottle up and engage the public with that feeling we get as an individual and as a team when a horse runs with great guts and determination to achieve an important victory, the way spending time with a horse one-on-one helps you forget everything else and be present in that moment, the delight we experience from watching a mare greet her new-born foal and witnessing those first baby-steps, and so many other rewarding aspects of this captivating industry?

Bren O'Brien: Is there any long-term plan for an involvement in the Australian industry for the Gunther family?

Tanya Gunther: I sure hope so!

Bren O'Brien: Thanks for your time!